Atari 7800 / 2600

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Re: Atari 7800 / 2600

Unread post by skooter »

You're probably right. I think it says "Menu" when assigning the buttons.
But I remember reading something like "Hold OSD to cancel" during the assignment, probably because the MiSTer button says OSD.

Anyway, any Bluetooth or USB controller with Menu assigned or the OSD button on MiSTer should work for skipping buttons.
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Re: Atari 7800 / 2600

Unread post by Kitrinx »

skooter wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:46 pm You're probably right. I think it says "Menu" when assigning the buttons.
But I remember reading something like "Hold OSD to cancel" during the assignment, probably because the MiSTer button says OSD.

Anyway, any Bluetooth or USB controller with Menu assigned or the OSD button on MiSTer should work for skipping buttons.
Or the menu button on the IO board.
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Re: Atari 7800 / 2600

Unread post by skooter »

Kitrinx wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 7:07 pm Or the menu button on the IO board.
That's what I meant by OSD on MiSTer. Both my case and my IO board say 'OSD' instead of Menu.
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Re: Atari 7800 / 2600

Unread post by thorr »

Thanks! My MiSTer is encased in a NESPi 4 case (this was a lot of work but I managed it) and I don't have access to the OSD button.
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Re: Atari 7800 / 2600

Unread post by redsteakraw »

One thing I would say is that with the Daptor D9 Which I primarily use for paddle controllers the problem is that configuring Mister with paddle controllers is near impossible and leads to more trouble than it is worth. What might make it easier if there was a specific define paddle controller dialog streamlined for paddle controllers so I can just plug in the Daptor and configure it once and it will work on all games for the core.
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Re: Atari 7800 / 2600

Unread post by thorr »

For all intents and purposes, on a real Atari 2600, the set of paddles act as one device that is essentially a two-button 2-axis analog joystick. Each DB9 port on the Atari 2600 has one device connected to it. The Atari decides to take this one device and use it for two players in the game code, but it is one device to the console. There could conceivably be a game that uses both paddles by one player, one in each hand set on the floor if the game was designed with that control scheme in mind. The Atari 7800 core is treating each individual paddle as separate devices/players which is causing the main issue. Both paddles combined should be considered one player in the MiSTer and it should ask for paddle button 1 and paddle button 2 in the mapping questions. Warlords uses four paddles, which would be two players in the MiSTer (two DB9's on the Atari 2600). This change of treating both paddles as one controller (which they are) would solve all of the problems.
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Re: Atari 7800 / 2600

Unread post by CMR »

7800 core is great. Thanks.
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Re: Atari 7800 / 2600

Unread post by KremlingKuthroat19 »

Just out of curiosity, when is the original 2600 going to be retired, or "archived"? Just requesting it to be removed since it serves no purpose anymore. The required file extensions for mappers and lack of Supercharger support is enough to make the 2600 core obsolete. Would also like the wiki to be renamed to Atari 7800, 2600 to reflect that it plays both consoles.
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Re: Atari 7800 / 2600

Unread post by pgimeno »

KremlingKuthroat19 wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:49 pmThe required file extensions for mappers and lack of Supercharger support is enough to make the 2600 core obsolete.
I consider the required file extensions a feature, not a bug. Heuristics may eventually fail.
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Re: Atari 7800 / 2600

Unread post by redsteakraw »

Just a tip I copied my 2600 Rom folder into the 7800 folder with the title "0 Atari 2600" so I can easily get to my roms . I haven't touched the old 2600 core since the release. Since it doesn't play Tapper well on my CRT anyway I think retiring the core would probably be best. Ideally though I would like MRA files for console cores so that Mega cores like this that code for multiple systems can be separated out with out actually being forked. So the Coleco and SG-1000 can have their own listings as well as the Sega Mastersystem and Game Gear and the TurboGrafx and SuperGrafx. Even specialized addons could be separated like the Famicom Disk system, Turbo CD and Supercharger.
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Re: Atari 7800 / 2600

Unread post by Chris23235 »

MRAs for consoles wouldn't work well. Many games have about a dozen or more valid dumps that had to be considered for an MRA. This would mean an immense task to built these MRA files and it would mean an immense task on the user side to filter out which MRAs are needed for them roms on the SD card.

With arcade games it is different. They rely on the Mame Set and there is only 1 dump for every chip (the different versions of the game are not comparable to different dumps of a console cartridge, these different versions had to be considered aditionally).
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Re: Atari 7800 / 2600

Unread post by Lightwave »

redsteakraw wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 12:02 pm Just a tip I copied my 2600 Rom folder into the 7800 folder with the title "0 Atari 2600" so I can easily get to my roms .
I did the opposite: moved the 2600 ROMs to the root of the core folder, and made a folder within that named "7800" for the 7800 ROMs :)
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Re: Atari 7800 / 2600

Unread post by redsteakraw »

Chris23235 wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:04 pm MRAs for consoles wouldn't work well. Many games have about a dozen or more valid dumps that had to be considered for an MRA. This would mean an immense task to built these MRA files and it would mean an immense task on the user side to filter out which MRAs are needed for them roms on the SD card.

With arcade games it is different. They rely on the Mame Set and there is only 1 dump for every chip (the different versions of the game are not comparable to different dumps of a console cartridge, these different versions had to be considered aditionally).
Just a MRA file for loading the proper Bios file and default rom folder and settings for the given core. So you can load a Japanese MegaDrive or a SuperGraphX and other and have all the right stuff set right from the Menu. Right now we have cores that are set up for everything is all lumped in and you have to constantly reset or dig through the menus. You can have actual separate consoles without the need to separate and maintain different codebases. You can have a SG-1000, GameGear or other separate systems even if they share the same core. Or am I missing something or mislead?
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Re: Atari 7800 / 2600

Unread post by Chris23235 »

redsteakraw wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:55 pm
Chris23235 wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:04 pm MRAs for consoles wouldn't work well. Many games have about a dozen or more valid dumps that had to be considered for an MRA. This would mean an immense task to built these MRA files and it would mean an immense task on the user side to filter out which MRAs are needed for them roms on the SD card.

With arcade games it is different. They rely on the Mame Set and there is only 1 dump for every chip (the different versions of the game are not comparable to different dumps of a console cartridge, these different versions had to be considered aditionally).
Just a MRA file for loading the proper Bios file and default rom folder and settings for the given core. So you can load a Japanese MegaDrive or a SuperGraphX and other and have all the right stuff set right from the Menu. Right now we have cores that are set up for everything is all lumped in and you have to constantly reset or dig through the menus. You can have actual separate consoles without the need to separate and maintain different codebases. You can have a SG-1000, GameGear or other separate systems even if they share the same core. Or am I missing something or mislead?
I think for this different configurations where the easier solution. Several cores like the ST or Amiga core already support this. Here you can save a different settings for a core (e.g. RAM-size, OS Rom, CPU settings, etc.).
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Re: Atari 7800 / 2600

Unread post by jca »

redsteakraw wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:55 pm ...
You can have actual separate consoles without the need to separate and maintain different codebases. You can have a SG-1000, GameGear or other separate systems even if they share the same core. Or am I missing something or mislead?
If you don't separate and maintain different codebases you will use the exact same core which will use the same game subfolder and the same config settings. It does not solve anything.
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Re: Atari 7800 / 2600

Unread post by skooter »

I don't get what is the big deal of having the ROMs in the same folder. My 7800 folder has three zip files:

@Atari 2600 2021-04-06.zip
@Atari 7800 2021-04-26.zip
Trebors_7800_ROM_PROPack_v3_8.zip

It is just an extra step to select the zip I want before navigating its structure.

For the SMS core, I created three subfolders: Game Gear, Master System, SG-1000.
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Re: Atari 7800 / 2600

Unread post by skooter »

On a second thought, regarding the settings, then I can see that we may have issues like:
- different optimal resolutions (atrac17 video modes) for SMS and Game Gear
- different scanlines/shadow masks/etc. settings for SMS and Game Gear
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Re: Atari 7800 / 2600

Unread post by thorr »

Lightwave wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:05 pm
redsteakraw wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 12:02 pm Just a tip I copied my 2600 Rom folder into the 7800 folder with the title "0 Atari 2600" so I can easily get to my roms .
I did the opposite: moved the 2600 ROMs to the root of the core folder, and made a folder within that named "7800" for the 7800 ROMs :)
I like to put my favorite games in the root of the core folder for easy access, then have subfolders for organization such as paddle games, all 7800 games, all 2600 games, supercharger, homegrown, etc. I haven't done this for this core yet, but plan to.
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Re: Atari 7800 / 2600

Unread post by LamerDeluxe »

skooter wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:19 pm On a second thought, regarding the settings, then I can see that we may have issues like:
- different optimal resolutions (atrac17 video modes) for SMS and Game Gear
- different scanlines/shadow masks/etc. settings for SMS and Game Gear
That is exactly the problem I have with the combined SMS + Game Gear core. Those machines use completely different types of displays.
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Re: Atari 7800 / 2600

Unread post by Kitrinx »

LamerDeluxe wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 7:52 am
skooter wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:19 pm On a second thought, regarding the settings, then I can see that we may have issues like:
- different optimal resolutions (atrac17 video modes) for SMS and Game Gear
- different scanlines/shadow masks/etc. settings for SMS and Game Gear
That is exactly the problem I have with the combined SMS + Game Gear core. Those machines use completely different types of displays.
yall are aware that 7800 actually played 2600 games right? It's not two systems mashed together, it's original behavior. 2600 also uses effectively random resolutions and framerates, because they were controlled by the programmers, no amount of modelines will save you. Video stabilization does attempt to make it very close to what the 7800 outputs though, so the same settings should apply with 7800 in low res mode.
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Re: Atari 7800 / 2600

Unread post by skooter »

I'm aware. The issues I mentioned are specific of the SMS/Game Gear core. Though they are also not two systems mashed together as Game Gear runs Master System games natively.
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Re: Atari 7800 / 2600

Unread post by LamerDeluxe »

Kitrinx wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 3:28 am
LamerDeluxe wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 7:52 am
skooter wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:19 pm On a second thought, regarding the settings, then I can see that we may have issues like:
- different optimal resolutions (atrac17 video modes) for SMS and Game Gear
- different scanlines/shadow masks/etc. settings for SMS and Game Gear
That is exactly the problem I have with the combined SMS + Game Gear core. Those machines use completely different types of displays.
yall are aware that 7800 actually played 2600 games right? It's not two systems mashed together, it's original behavior. 2600 also uses effectively random resolutions and framerates, because they were controlled by the programmers, no amount of modelines will save you. Video stabilization does attempt to make it very close to what the 7800 outputs though, so the same settings should apply with 7800 in low res mode.
I am, I am fine with the 2600 and 7800 being a combined core (the 7800 is an extended 2600, like you explained before) and named as such. My point was that with the SMS and Game Gear you will usually want different settings because they use completely different types of displays.
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Re: Atari 7800 / 2600

Unread post by Chris23235 »

LamerDeluxe wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 11:19 am I am, I am fine with the 2600 and 7800 being a combined core (the 7800 is an extended 2600, like you explained before) and named as such. My point was that with the SMS and Game Gear you will usually want different settings because they use completely different types of displays.
I think Kitrinx point was that this is not a combined core, the difference is in the wording. The 7800 core replicates the 7800 hardware. There is nothing combined into the core from another machine.
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Re: Atari 7800 / 2600

Unread post by LamerDeluxe »

Chris23235 wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 12:24 pm
LamerDeluxe wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 11:19 am I am, I am fine with the 2600 and 7800 being a combined core (the 7800 is an extended 2600, like you explained before) and named as such. My point was that with the SMS and Game Gear you will usually want different settings because they use completely different types of displays.
I think Kitrinx point was that this is not a combined core, the difference is in the wording. The 7800 core replicates the 7800 hardware. There is nothing combined into the core from another machine.
I'm saying that because the idea is to replace the 2600 core with the 7800 core. In that case it is handy to name it the 2600/7800 core, for people who aren't aware that the 7800 can play 2600 games perfectly. And 2600 should probably come first, as that's the most well known machine.
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Re: Atari 7800 / 2600

Unread post by redsteakraw »

Kitrinx wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 3:28 am yall are aware that 7800 actually played 2600 games right? It's not two systems mashed together, it's original behavior. 2600 also uses effectively random resolutions and framerates, because they were controlled by the programmers, no amount of modelines will save you. Video stabilization does attempt to make it very close to what the 7800 outputs though, so the same settings should apply with 7800 in low res mode.
Sorry, maybe this was an inappropriate place to air the conversation as it is bigger and not necessarily tied to this core. Most here would agree that the core you built is running and designed as it should, the 7800 is a 2600 with extra bits and you built that. It also is backwards compatible and you built that, you went above and beyond what most people expected and really made a solid core. This conversation is a broader conversation for how MiSTer handles large cores that span multiple systems. Obviously maintaining separate code bases would be needless and silly. In certain circumstances some amount of settings based separation may be warranted but this discussion may be more appropriate elsewhere.
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Re: Atari 7800 / 2600

Unread post by MiSTer_Kirk »

Obviously maintaining separate code bases would be needless and silly.
No more silly than the many arcade cores, or the many computer cores, or the many consoles cores, or the utterly pointless ScummVM core - but it exists.
Nobody here has the right to right-off THE most iconic console of all time. NOBODY. You don't get to say what gets deleted or not.
Since everyone has their own ideas, here is one. How about porting all the 2600 fixes BACK to the actual 2600 core ? Why delete the 2600 core just because it's a bit of "Maintenance" ? The 7800 is NOT, and never will be a 2600 - it doesn't deserve that status. Yes, it plays 2600 games, but so what ?
It was late to a release, nobody at Atari really wanted it, the public certainly didn't want it, and by the time it actually got a release it was so damn dated you have to question why Atari bothered, other than just to get rid of all that unsold stock. The 7800 should have gone to the same New Mexico landfill site as E.T. and buried in a few thousand tonnes of concrete.
Too many here think they can dictate how this project goes, and what everyone else has to use. This forum is full of a-holes who think they know best. Clue, you DON'T, so kindly keep your "opinions" to yourself.
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Re: Atari 7800 / 2600

Unread post by dmckean »

MiSTer_Kirk wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 11:12 pm Since everyone has their own ideas, here is one. How about porting all the 2600 fixes BACK to the actual 2600 core ?
The 7800 core is written in verilog and the 2600 core is VHDL so that's never going to happen. The 7800 is just a 2600 with an extra graphics chip.

A lot of effort was put into 2600 functionality for this this core by Kitrinx and alanswx, let's not worry so much about what it's named.
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Re: Atari 7800 / 2600

Unread post by Kitrinx »

MiSTer_Kirk wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 11:12 pm
Obviously maintaining separate code bases would be needless and silly.
No more silly than the many arcade cores, or the many computer cores, or the many consoles cores, or the utterly pointless ScummVM core - but it exists.
Nobody here has the right to right-off THE most iconic console of all time. NOBODY. You don't get to say what gets deleted or not.
Since everyone has their own ideas, here is one. How about porting all the 2600 fixes BACK to the actual 2600 core ? Why delete the 2600 core just because it's a bit of "Maintenance" ? The 7800 is NOT, and never will be a 2600 - it doesn't deserve that status. Yes, it plays 2600 games, but so what ?
It was late to a release, nobody at Atari really wanted it, the public certainly didn't want it, and by the time it actually got a release it was so damn dated you have to question why Atari bothered, other than just to get rid of all that unsold stock. The 7800 should have gone to the same New Mexico landfill site as E.T. and buried in a few thousand tonnes of concrete.
Too many here think they can dictate how this project goes, and what everyone else has to use. This forum is full of a-holes who think they know best. Clue, you DON'T, so kindly keep your "opinions" to yourself.

I can only conclude this post is some kind of attempt to start drama, but I will address one thing:
The way my core is written, if you back ported all the parts of it that improve upon the 2600, you would just end up with the 7800 core, with maria and the control register disabled. I personally wouldn't be willing to maintain such a needless extra thing. It would be really pointless. My two cents is that the 2600 core being retired would be beneficial for avoiding confusion. Even if someone else built a 2600-only version of my code, users and other devs alike would end up working with a core that is not being maintained by the author of the code, and consequently lagging in features and fixes.
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Re: Atari 7800 / 2600

Unread post by Moondandy »

How easy is it to make a symlink that appears in the console cores list as "Atari 2600" and it just opens the 7800 core?
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Re: Atari 7800 / 2600

Unread post by MiSTer_Kirk »

Kitrinx wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 1:11 am
I can only conclude this post is some kind of attempt to start drama, but I will address one thing:
The way my core is written, if you back ported all the parts of it that improve upon the 2600, you would just end up with the 7800 core, with maria and the control register disabled. I personally wouldn't be willing to maintain such a needless extra thing. It would be really pointless. My two cents is that the 2600 core being retired would be beneficial for avoiding confusion. Even if someone else built a 2600-only version of my code, users and other devs alike would end up working with a core that is not being maintained by the author of the code, and consequently lagging in features and fixes.
I appreciate all the work you have done, the core is very good. My point wasn't aimed at you personally, it's aimed at those who want to end the 2600 core, and basically erase the 2600 from history. It's THE most iconic console ever, and it's going nowhere, despite the idiots here who want to end it's only core. I appreciate the explanation of why you can't port back your code, but your ideas that you put into the core could surely be put into the 2600 core ?
Obviously, that would have to be taken up by someone else, but lets not just erase the core just because. Like a few have already said, there will be many who have never heard of the 7800, or even know it can play 2600 games, so with no 2600 core how are they to know how to play 2600 games ?

Like I have said before, this is supposed to be a preservation project, not a popularity project. I mean, what is next for the chopping block ? Sega hardware ? Just because one system can play another system's games ?
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