DE-10 Replacement for 99$ Coming Soon?

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DE-10 Replacement for 99$ Coming Soon?

Unread post by Waifu4Life »

Didn't see any topic on this, so figured I'd post this.

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Re: DE-10 Replacement for 99$ Coming Soon?

Unread post by akeley »

Here's something for the readers: https://www.readonlymemo.com/cheap-mist ... ase-plans/

It's one of these "sounds too good to be true" things, but if he can pull it off - and have a steady supply, not just 500 units or something - it'd be simply amazing.

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Re: DE-10 Replacement for 99$ Coming Soon?

Unread post by Armakuni »

akeley wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 2:35 am

Here's something for the readers: https://www.readonlymemo.com/cheap-mist ... ase-plans/

It's one of these "sounds too good to be true" things, but if he can pull it off - and have a steady supply, not just 500 units or something - it'd be simply amazing.

Why does it sound too good to be true ?

The DE10 was a similar price up to early 2021 and he is dealing direct with Altera for supply.
The quantities he would need to get the best price from Altera should mean a good supply too

Its a shame people have got used to Terasics milking of the project now

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Re: DE-10 Replacement for 99$ Coming Soon?

Unread post by akeley »

Armakuni wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 8:04 am

Why does it sound too good to be true ?

If it's so easy, why has nobody done it yet? And it's not like we had shortage of various add ons, multisystems, etc.

Armakuni wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 8:04 am

The DE10 was a similar price up to early 2021 and he is dealing direct with Altera for supply.
The quantities he would need to get the best price from Altera should mean a good supply too

The price I looked at in 2020 before buying was suppsoed to be 130$, but in reality, after all the assorted VATs etc I paid 170USD. I suppose it was similar for most people. Whether he can pull of the 99$ remains to be seen, perhaps it will puff up eventually, but if he does then it will be quite a feat.

Armakuni wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 8:04 am

Its a shame people have got used to Terasics milking of the project now

Not sure what you mean by that. The price went up gradually after Covid and all that what went down with global electronics market.
And it's not like we had many options of resisting that.

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Re: DE-10 Replacement for 99$ Coming Soon?

Unread post by breiztiger »

i payed 118€ in 2018 and 155€ in 2021 exclude VAT

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Re: DE-10 Replacement for 99$ Coming Soon?

Unread post by annette »

Armakuni wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 8:04 am
akeley wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 2:35 am

Here's something for the readers: https://www.readonlymemo.com/cheap-mist ... ase-plans/

It's one of these "sounds too good to be true" things, but if he can pull it off - and have a steady supply, not just 500 units or something - it'd be simply amazing.

Why does it sound too good to be true ?

The DE10 was a similar price up to early 2021 and he is dealing direct with Altera for supply.
The quantities he would need to get the best price from Altera should mean a good supply too

Its a shame people have got used to Terasics milking of the project now

What I find interesting is a picture was posted on one of the MiSTer Facebook groups, from a Chinese account showing a picture of the clone board, when asked how the chips were sourced this picture was posted and soon after quickly deleted, odd to say the least, but a reverse image search shows this picture is unique, take from this what you will.

439908397_847084290769528_1356328725110474633_n.jpg
439908397_847084290769528_1356328725110474633_n.jpg (276.59 KiB) Viewed 2022 times
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Re: DE-10 Replacement for 99$ Coming Soon?

Unread post by lister_of_smeg »

annette wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 10:07 am

What I find interesting is a picture was posted on one of the MiSTer Facebook groups, from a Chinese account showing a picture of the clone board, when asked how the chips were sourced this picture was posted and soon after quickly deleted, odd to say the least, but a reverse image search shows this picture is unique, take from this what you will.

439908397_847084290769528_1356328725110474633_n.jpg

Would be interesting, except the part being used in the clone is a 5CSXFC6C6U23I7N. My guess would be they were reclaiming old Cyclone Vs during the early stages of development, rather than incurring the expense of buying them new in small quantities.

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Re: DE-10 Replacement for 99$ Coming Soon?

Unread post by Armakuni »

akeley wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 9:17 am
Armakuni wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 8:04 am

Why does it sound too good to be true ?

If it's so easy, why has nobody done it yet? And it's not like we had shortage of various add ons, multisystems, etc.

Armakuni wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 8:04 am

The DE10 was a similar price up to early 2021 and he is dealing direct with Altera for supply.
The quantities he would need to get the best price from Altera should mean a good supply too

The price I looked at in 2020 before buying was suppsoed to be 130$, but in reality, after all the assorted VATs etc I paid 170USD. I suppose it was similar for most people. Whether he can pull of the 99$ remains to be seen, perhaps it will puff up eventually, but if he does then it will be quite a feat.

Armakuni wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 8:04 am

Its a shame people have got used to Terasics milking of the project now

Not sure what you mean by that. The price went up gradually after Covid and all that what went down with global electronics market.
And it's not like we had many options of resisting that.

This DE10 clone is a spinoff from a new business venture by Taki, He is planning to make products using the same Cyclone V as the DE10 and with a good supply setup direct from Altera it made sense to make a clone board

I picked up my DE10 in March 2021 from Digikey and it was £95 +vat with free delivery

Terasic are just milking the project the main design focus has never been that popular (Intels FPGA college program) and they have just found a niche for the board and are making the maximum profit they can

Terasic will get better deals on the chips from Altera being a partner, someone involved with the industry has estimated $15-$20 a pop, then its just DDR3, some controller chips and the rest is just noise as it was put. Terasic could still make decent profit on the DE10 at $99

The Cyclone V is produced at TSMC on the old 28nm process which they increased capacity on during COVID and have been getting around 93% + good yields per wafer, so this is another reason why these clone boards are viable and Taki has already confirmed with Altera the Cyclone range is not being made end of life any time soon

We have also seen other Cyclone V dev boards appearing on Ali for sub $99 recently, sadly the the HDMI is not stable at 1080p and the GPIO is not compatible with the project

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Re: DE-10 Replacement for 99$ Coming Soon?

Unread post by retrodroid »

breiztiger wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 9:55 am

i payed 118€ in 2018 and 155€ in 2021 exclude VAT

In Jan of 2021 I paid $188.60 CDN for my DE-10 from Digikey.ca.

I see they are now listed for $333.49 CDN, so nearly double the price.

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Re: DE-10 Replacement for 99$ Coming Soon?

Unread post by akeley »

Armakuni wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 2:36 pm

This DE10 clone is a spinoff from a new business venture by Taki, He is planning to make products using the same Cyclone V as the DE10 and with a good supply setup direct from Altera it made sense to make a clone board

If it's so easy, why has nobody done it yet? And it's not like we had shortage of various add ons, multisystems, etc.
Additionally, who is "Taki" and why should I be less skeptical about them than about any other pie in the sky sounding project I've heard about over the years?

Armakuni wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 2:36 pm

I picked up my DE10 in March 2021 from Digikey and it was £95 +vat with free delivery

Yeah, that's not 99 USD.

Armakuni wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 2:36 pm

Terasic are just milking the project the main design focus has never been that popular (Intels FPGA college program) and they have just found a niche for the board and are making the maximum profit they can

So, it's just like Nvidia, AMD, Intel and any other business out there? Even if we somehow forget about supply chain issues etc, which made even the RPi raise prices. I'm also still not sure what solution you propose to this this alleged milking, since you said "it's a shame people got used to it".

Armakuni wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 2:36 pm

We have also seen other Cyclone V dev boards appearing on Ali for sub $99 recently, sadly the the HDMI is not stable at 1080p and the GPIO is not compatible with the project

Ok, so pretty much useless. Which is why I said "it's too good to be true" when I have heard about magic 99USD DE-10 appearing.

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Re: DE-10 Replacement for 99$ Coming Soon?

Unread post by KennyL »

Taki Udon is decently sized retro handheld youtuber living in china. https://www.youtube.com/@TakiUdon

Edit: Oops, sorry I missed that this article got posted already.
Here is an article about it.
https://www.readonlymemo.com/cheap-mist ... ase-plans/

Hope they can pull it off.

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Re: DE-10 Replacement for 99$ Coming Soon?

Unread post by Armakuni »

akeley wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 2:24 am
Armakuni wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 2:36 pm

This DE10 clone is a spinoff from a new business venture by Taki, He is planning to make products using the same Cyclone V as the DE10 and with a good supply setup direct from Altera it made sense to make a clone board

If it's so easy, why has nobody done it yet? And it's not like we had shortage of various add ons, multisystems, etc.
Additionally, who is "Taki" and why should I be less skeptical about them than about any other pie in the sky sounding project I've heard about over the years?

Armakuni wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 2:36 pm

I picked up my DE10 in March 2021 from Digikey and it was £95 +vat with free delivery

Yeah, that's not 99 USD.

Armakuni wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 2:36 pm

Terasic are just milking the project the main design focus has never been that popular (Intels FPGA college program) and they have just found a niche for the board and are making the maximum profit they can

So, it's just like Nvidia, AMD, Intel and any other business out there? Even if we somehow forget about supply chain issues etc, which made even the RPi raise prices. I'm also still not sure what solution you propose to this this alleged milking, since you said "it's a shame people got used to it".

Armakuni wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 2:36 pm

We have also seen other Cyclone V dev boards appearing on Ali for sub $99 recently, sadly the the HDMI is not stable at 1080p and the GPIO is not compatible with the project

Ok, so pretty much useless. Which is why I said "it's too good to be true" when I have heard about magic 99USD DE-10 appearing.

Nobody else has done it yet due to the investment needed especially in setting up a direct line with Altera, you would need to be talking large volumes to get the price down. Not something other MiSTer hardware producers would find viable, if you are using the same Cyclone V for other products then it makes a lot of sense no ?
Most of the MiSTer hardware sellers do so as a side/hobby business. The full kit sellers sell a few hundred a year tops

Taki has history in the industry so is not a new name and i dont see why its a pie in the sky project when we already have seen working prototypes and Taki has been very open about his project on Discord etc.

Supply chain issues are not really a major issue anymore especially for what is a simple dev board like the DE10 and if those were still an issue a $99 clone board would not be viable

Yes £95 is not $99 but its still double the price now and there is no reason Terasic cant hit that old price point especially with their partnerships

The point about the sub $99 Ali boards is just to highlight how viable a $99 DE10 clone is now especially if you consider these are smaller sellers. The DE10 clone has already been in testing with no issues found so far and really its a very basic board with all the schematics available so producing a clone is not hard work or need any reverse engineering. They have already improved the power stage so it accepts +12v or +5v and the DC to DC convertor is more efficient which makes a custom hand held PCB more viable

The DE10 clone will be a solution to Terasics milking and allow the project to grow as the $500-$600 complete kit price is very off-putting for some people, Terasic will have to cut price to shift inventory as Digikey and Mouser are holding a lot of stock again now between them and Intels college programme is not that popular

I struggle to see how a DE10 clone is not good for the project and why it's deemed too good to be true ?

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Re: DE-10 Replacement for 99$ Coming Soon?

Unread post by akeley »

Armakuni wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 7:28 am

I struggle to see how a DE10 is not good for the project and why it's deemed too good to be true ?

What are you on about mate? Where did I say "DE10 is not good for the project"?

As for "why it's deemed too good to be true ?" ok, English is my 2nd language, but is it really so hard to suss out the meaning from my 2-sentence long, fairly simple initial post? If it really is (and you're not just arguing for the sake of splitting hairs, which is a common occurence on this board) then here's a bullet-point breakdown:
-in the 5 years of watching this project I've seen numerous hardware-related initiatives, from handhelds to "alternatives", etc. A few of them became reality, most ended up in the talking stage
-nevertheless, none of them aimed at actually replacing the DE10 in a price point lower than even the initial one
-that aside of numerous existing hardware sellers, some of whom are not at all hobbyist and are quite big (eg Retro Castle), who never talked about as if it's possible
-this is why a sudden appearance of somebody who says they can deliver a 99$ replacement board in a couple of months inclined me to say "it's too good to be true", as well as state it'd be "amazing" if it actually came to be
-as a backward forum user who's not on Discord and not in the loop, I think I might be excused for expressing skepticism re: somebody whom I've never heard about and who's all of a sudden going to disrupt the whole biz (including Terasic :)

I hope this makes it a bit clearer, though I'm pretty sure it all could be ascertained just from reading my 1st post in a more careful manner.

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Re: DE-10 Replacement for 99$ Coming Soon?

Unread post by Armakuni »

akeley wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 8:29 am
Armakuni wrote: Tue May 14, 2024 7:28 am

I struggle to see how a DE10 is not good for the project and why it's deemed too good to be true ?

What are you on about mate? Where did I say "DE10 is not good for the project"?

As for "why it's deemed too good to be true ?" ok, English is my 2nd language, but is it really so hard to suss out the meaning from my 2-sentence long, fairly simple initial post? If it really is (and you're not just arguing for the sake of splitting hairs, which is a common occurence on this board) then here's a bullet-point breakdown:
-in the 5 years of watching this project I've seen numerous hardware-related initiatives, from handhelds to "alternatives", etc. A few of them became reality, most ended up in the talking stage
-nevertheless, none of them aimed at actually replacing the DE10 in a price point lower than even the initial one
-that aside of numerous existing hardware sellers, some of whom are not at all hobbyist and are quite big (eg Retro Castle), who never talked about as if it's possible
-this is why a sudden appearance of somebody who says they can deliver a 99$ replacement board in a couple of months inclined me to say "it's too good to be true", as well as state it'd be "amazing" if it actually came to be
-as a backward forum user who's not on Discord and not in the loop, I think I might be excused for expressing skepticism re: somebody whom I've never heard about and who's all of a sudden going to disrupt the whole biz (including Terasic :)

I hope this makes it a bit clearer, though I'm pretty sure it all could be ascertained just from reading my 1st post in a more careful manner.

Sorry for the typo but i have already answered some of those points already

You have this belief the MiSTer project is larger than it really is especially from one of the current hardware producers POV, it wouldnt be viable for them. Retro Castle is not that big

If you are already planning to make products using the same Cyclone V and have been able to factor in a DE10 clone into the deal with Altera to get the chips as cheap as possible then it becomes viable. Its about quantities this is the same reason why SDram can be produced cheaper its all about scales of quantities.

This is just focused on bring the price point of the DE10 back down to around what it was with the added benefit of cheaper SDram and add on boards

There is nothing unbelievable in what Taki is promoting and we have already seen a working prototype with an actual release date not too far away

Like i stated i hope this clone will force Terasic hand to bring the price back down to what it was due to competition, they have had a good run from the project

Dont forget Terasic was offering the DE10 for a similar price point $115 not long ago and could still

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