MiSTer FPGA Forum

Jp8080 and Access Virus Ti2 Plus Elevator Action

FPGA circuitry is for stuff that needs to be super low-latency, and a MIDI synth absolutely does not need that. They're meant to be remote devices on a serial bus, not hanging out on the same chip fabric. There would be literally nothing to gain by implementing it on the FPGA. All it would do is burn resources needed for other things.

The MT32-Pi is a nearly perfect design. Its only real problem is that Pis are so hard to get, but that's the corporation's fault, not that of the MT32-Pi designer.

I would like to see Namco 86 system titles done but I've read the boards contain a lot of custom chips.

Sorgelig wrote: ↑Fri Jan 13, 2023 7:21 am

Antoine.WG wrote: ↑Fri Jan 13, 2023 1:59 am

A real FPGA implementation of the Roland MT-32, not the software emulated MT32-pi.

by incidence mostly large cores such as ao486 and Minimig take advantage of MT32/MIDI, so there is anyway no space for MT32 left on FPGA. MT32 in FPGA itself should be quite large. So MT32pi is a good and budget alternative.

I didn't mean running side by side with another core. I mean connected to a PC via a MIDI interface, replicate the functionality of the MT32, no MT32-pi or Munt involved.

Antoine.WG wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 5:13 am

Sorgelig wrote: ↑Fri Jan 13, 2023 7:21 am

Antoine.WG wrote: ↑Fri Jan 13, 2023 1:59 am

A real FPGA implementation of the Roland MT-32, not the software emulated MT32-pi.

by incidence mostly large cores such as ao486 and Minimig take advantage of MT32/MIDI, so there is anyway no space for MT32 left on FPGA. MT32 in FPGA itself should be quite large. So MT32pi is a good and budget alternative.

I didn't mean running side by side with another core. I mean connected to a PC via a MIDI interface, replicate the functionality of the MT32, no MT32-pi or Munt involved.

Doesn't MT-32PI provide that anyway ? What advantage is there is using a PC to emulate? Dale's project is very good
I have one of Lite models pop it into the User port job done

Santa's list

[ARCADE GAME]

• TAITO F3 SYSTEM HARDWARE (Arkanoid Returns, Bubble Memories, Bubble Symphony, Elevator Action Returns, Puzzle Bobble 2x, 3, 4 and more and more)
• Rainbow Islands
• The NewZealand Story
• Rod-Land
• Toki
• Liquid Kids (TAITO F2 SYSTEM HARDWARE)
• Caveman Ninja (Joe & Mac)
• Joe & Mac Returns
• Rolling Thunder
• Marble Madness
• Tetris The Grandmaster 2 Plus
• Sunset Riders
• Any system with Shoot 'em up game.

[Computer]

• Thomson computers (MO5, TO7....)
• X68000 (much better finished)
• FM Towns

One day maybe.

Malor wrote: ↑Fri Jan 13, 2023 11:52 am

FPGA circuitry is for stuff that needs to be super low-latency, and a MIDI synth absolutely does not need that. They're meant to be remote devices on a serial bus, not hanging out on the same chip fabric. There would be literally nothing to gain by implementing it on the FPGA. All it would do is burn resources needed for other things.

When creating music, audio needs to be very low-latency (ASIO is usually used for that), 5 milliseconds is common. This is important when live-recording tracks.

That said, most well-known classic synthesizers can successfully be emulated without needing an FPGA, though an FPGA would probably be more energy-efficient.

FPGAs are already used in some synthesizers, as they can provide not only a large amount of polyphony (with up to 128 voices on the Waldorf Kyra), where you can still use all the modulation and filters, but they can also generate waveforms at such a high frequency (32 x oversampling on Kyra, 512 x on the Novation Peak) that aliasing is completely outside the audible spectrum. Modulation can also be done at audio-rate. An FPGA can bring a lot of advantages to synthesizers.

PistolsAtDawn wrote: ↑Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:23 pm

I would like to see the Virtual Boy preserved for FPGAs. I have one and most of the NA library that I'd be willing to loan or give to a developer if a sacrificial unit would be needed to make that happen.

The virtual boy probably would be preserved best via VR not FPGA... FPGA does not really give the hardware the justice it deserves!
Speaking of, is there a virtual boy emulator which works on VR?

Armakuni wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 8:03 am

Antoine.WG wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 5:13 am

Sorgelig wrote: ↑Fri Jan 13, 2023 7:21 am

by incidence mostly large cores such as ao486 and Minimig take advantage of MT32/MIDI, so there is anyway no space for MT32 left on FPGA. MT32 in FPGA itself should be quite large. So MT32pi is a good and budget alternative.

I didn't mean running side by side with another core. I mean connected to a PC via a MIDI interface, replicate the functionality of the MT32, no MT32-pi or Munt involved.

Doesn't MT-32PI provide that anyway ? What advantage is there is using a PC to emulate? Dale's project is very good
I have one of Lite models pop it into the User port job done

If software emulation is good enough then why are any of us here? Why is MiSTer even a thing? There are plenty of great software emulators for every single MiSTer core.

Perhaps I'm not being clear in what I'm thinking. The PC wouldn't be emulating anything. The PC sends it MIDI commands as if it were an actual MT32, just like MT32-pi or Munt, but in hardware.

LamerDeluxe wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 10:22 am

When creating music, audio needs to be very low-latency (ASIO is usually used for that), 5 milliseconds is common. This is important when live-recording tracks.

That said, most well-known classic synthesizers can successfully be emulated without needing an FPGA, though an FPGA would probably be more energy-efficient.

FPGAs are already used in some synthesizers, as they can provide not only a large amount of polyphony (with up to 128 voices on the Waldorf Kyra), where you can still use all the modulation and filters, but they can also generate waveforms at such a high frequency (32 x oversampling on Kyra, 512 x on the Novation Peak) that aliasing is completely outside the audible spectrum. Modulation can also be done at audio-rate. An FPGA can bring a lot of advantages to synthesizers.

The actual, real-life physical synthesizers use MIDI. Having the MT32 running on the Pi is the exact same thing.

FPGA is for sub-millisecond devices, not for something hanging off a 31.5KHz serial bus.

If you're trying to turn the DE-10 into a synthesizer instead of a game emulator, that's fine, but it would be useless for the Mister project. You might be able to make something really neat, but it's not related to retro gaming at all.

Antoine.WG wrote: ↑Sun Jan 15, 2023 10:33 pm

Armakuni wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 8:03 am

Antoine.WG wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 5:13 am

I didn't mean running side by side with another core. I mean connected to a PC via a MIDI interface, replicate the functionality of the MT32, no MT32-pi or Munt involved.

Doesn't MT-32PI provide that anyway ? What advantage is there is using a PC to emulate? Dale's project is very good
I have one of Lite models pop it into the User port job done

If software emulation is good enough then why are any of us here? Why is MiSTer even a thing? There are plenty of great software emulators for every single MiSTer core.

Perhaps I'm not being clear in what I'm thinking. The PC wouldn't be emulating anything. The PC sends it MIDI commands as if it were an actual MT32, just like MT32-pi or Munt, but in hardware.

Because MiSTer was a cheap project to buy into originally ?

MiSTer was forked from MiST to focus on HDMI as Sorg got annoyed working with analogue video and the changes he wanted was refused by the MiST creator.

https://wireframe.raspberrypi.com/artic ... revolution

Yes there are great software emulators and software doesn't have the limits of FPGA

MT-32PI is a bare metal emulation and the work Dale has done is just brilliant and very cheap to use once Pi supplies improve later this year. For the amount of cores that have support it does the job very well

Malor wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 6:37 am

LamerDeluxe wrote: ↑Sat Jan 14, 2023 10:22 am

When creating music, audio needs to be very low-latency (ASIO is usually used for that), 5 milliseconds is common. This is important when live-recording tracks.

That said, most well-known classic synthesizers can successfully be emulated without needing an FPGA, though an FPGA would probably be more energy-efficient.

FPGAs are already used in some synthesizers, as they can provide not only a large amount of polyphony (with up to 128 voices on the Waldorf Kyra), where you can still use all the modulation and filters, but they can also generate waveforms at such a high frequency (32 x oversampling on Kyra, 512 x on the Novation Peak) that aliasing is completely outside the audible spectrum. Modulation can also be done at audio-rate. An FPGA can bring a lot of advantages to synthesizers.

The actual, real-life physical synthesizers use MIDI. Having the MT32 running on the Pi is the exact same thing.

FPGA is for sub-millisecond devices, not for something hanging off a 31.5KHz serial bus.

If you're trying to turn the DE-10 into a synthesizer instead of a game emulator, that's fine, but it would be useless for the Mister project. You might be able to make something really neat, but it's not related to retro gaming at all.

Yes, agreed. FPGA's can be useful for synthesizers, but wouldn't add anything latency-wise as a MIDI connected device, for something retro gaming related. And indeed the mt32-pi does work great as a synth connected by MIDI (I used to have a real MT32 as well).

And while synthesizer cores would be great, that isn't the aim of the MiSTer project.

AMSTRAD GX4000 !!!

Malor wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 6:37 am

FPGA is for sub-millisecond devices, not for something hanging off a 31.5KHz serial bus.

Technically that's sub-millisecond

MIDI is a 10-bit transmission protocol (8 bit + start + stop, no parity). Each note involves three bytes - event+channel, note, velocity. So, the total time to send a note is 3*10/31250 which is 0.96 ms - very slightly sub-millisecond. That's the latency for sending a note event, and the resolution is 32 µs assuming that a transmission can start at any point within the 31.25 kHz clock.

Anyway, that'd only be of any relevance for MIDI sounds that need to be in sync with the video - say a MIDI-based dancing game or MIDI-based sound effects synced with video. For any normal use of a MIDI synthesizer the additional latency that a RPi can add is insignificant.

PS: Being bare-metal does not guarantee reasonable latency. This Speccy emulator runs on a Pi as a bare metal emulator and yet it has an unacceptable latency for me: https://zxmini.speccy.org/en/index.html

My childhood games i would love to see on Mister:
Battlezone
Tempest
Astro Blaster
Kangaroo
And final Saturn core with working Castlevania SOTN.

pgimeno wrote: ↑Sat Jan 21, 2023 8:09 am

Anyway, that'd only be of any relevance for MIDI sounds that need to be in sync with the video - say a MIDI-based dancing game or MIDI-based sound effects synced with video. For any normal use of a MIDI synthesizer the additional latency that a RPi can add is insignificant.

I haven't tested it, but there's no reason why the Pi has to take any longer than an actual synthesizer. It's sitting directly on the metal, and it's not doing any graphics at all, so nothing should be imposing any extra latency. The only delay should be how long the code takes to run. Code had to run on the real synths, too, and the Pi is many generations newer and faster, so it could respond just as quickly as real hardware did.

I don't have a real MT-32 to test against, however. I'm not saying the Pi definitely responds as quickly. It should, but that's not evidence, it's just a guess. Both MUNT and Fluidsynth at least sound right when I'm playing old DOS games.

PS: Being bare-metal does not guarantee reasonable latency. This Speccy emulator runs on a Pi as a bare metal emulator and yet it has an unacceptable latency for me: https://zxmini.speccy.org/en/index.html

I gather that the video chips on the various Pis are pretty fiddly and high-latency, so that might well be part of the problem. And of course the software has to be written for low-latency output. Bare metal software can suck just as much as the OS-based stuff.

Battlezone and Star Castle for me.

Back in the day I think I could qualify for being 'expert' on Battlezone, and I once made one 10p game last over three hours and only left because we had places to be!

Nowadays I'd probably get wiped out instantly

Limenko PCB

I Will Love to see the game "Legend of Heroes" on Mister.

Cadash (and all other games supported by this taito board)
Champion wrestling (and all other games supported by this taito board)
Top Landing (Taito)
Raiden II (Seibu Kaihatsu)
The Simpsons (Konami)
After Burner (Sega)
Elevator Action (Taito)

All of the rotary arcade games

Mechanical rotary games (joystick w/ rotary 12 position mechanical switch):
Bermuda Triangle [snk]
Downtown [seta]
Gondomania/Makyou Senshi [data east]
Guerilla War [snk]
Heavy Barrel [data east]
Ikari Warriors [snk]
Ikari III (horizontal) [snk]
Midnight Resistance (horizontal) [data east]
SAR Search and Rescue [snk]
Time Soldiers/Battle Field [snk/romstar]
TNK III/T.A.N.K. [snk]
Victory Road/Dogou Souken [snk]
World Wars [snk]

Misc:
Jackal/Top Gunner (only bootleg has rotary support?) [konami]

Optical rotary game (joystick w/ 24 position optical encoder wheel):
Caliber 50 [seta]

Optical rotary games (joystick w/ 100 position optical encoder wheel):
Fighting Soccer (horizontal) [snk] (bootleg does not support rotary joysticks, missing 4 x 4 pin connectors for optical joysticks)
Touchdown Fever [snk]
Touchdown Fever II [snk]

Malor wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 6:37 am

If you're trying to turn the DE-10 into a synthesizer instead of a game emulator, that's fine, but it would be useless for the Mister project. You might be able to make something really neat, but it's not related to retro gaming at all.

The MiSTer was never strictly a retro gaming project. Even the name "MiSTer" comes from "Amiga" and "Atari ST", which are general purpose computers. The Atari ST in particular seems to be primarily used for composing music, not for playing games. A synthesizer core would be very valuable even if you won't personally use it.

mhartman wrote: ↑Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:02 am

Rush n Crash
Pole Position I & II
Qix

One way of playing Pole Position on the MiSTer (at least for now) is the Playstaion rom called Namco Museum Vol. 1.

You'll find Pole Position on there.

Namco Museum series on PS1 is great to play plenty of Namco Arcade not available in MiSTer for the moment.

I seem to remember watching a video on YouTube at least 5 years ago (maybe as many as 10 years ago) about someone trying to preserve Pole Position using FPGA or something, but can't find it now.

I want to see an Vax-11 with a serial snac port so it can be hooked up to a terminal(or my computer with a serial tty session). Would like to try installing BSD or VMX on the device.

jd213 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 4:45 pm

I seem to remember watching a video on YouTube at least 5 years ago (maybe as many as 10 years ago) about someone trying to preserve Pole Position using FPGA or something, but can't find it now.

http://ppclone.blogspot.com/

Ah, thanks. Damn, more than 5 years since the last update and looks like some people have tried contacting them without success, too bad.

wark91 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 3:33 pm

Namco Museum series on PS1 is great to play plenty of Namco Arcade not available in MiSTer for the moment.

Super! Many thanks for that. I have just tried Rolling Thunder as it is part of the last series called Namco Museum Encore. I must admit that I do love the NES version, it is awesome (and easier ...lol...)! I have fond memories of this game!

Hopefully the Mister can do Namco System 11 and 12 which both are basically PS1+ and Namco System 22 and Super System 22. Would be nice to play the arcade versions of Tekken 3 and Time Crisis 1.

Also hoping for a miracle in Sega Model 1. Virtua Fighter 1 arcade heaven.

I would like to see the following cores in the near future

Juno First
Battlantis
Pacmania
Sky Shark!! / Twin Hawk / Twin Cobra
Pandoras Palace (fun game)
Dragon Spirit
Galaga 88

I guess there are some more classic games but these are the one I remember from playing in mame. As far as latency is concerned I think mister is really close to the original but due to complexity of the cores it is still the achilles heel. I appreciate the work of all core developers who make this all possible. Just look at the die of a "simple" cpu such as the ZX80. To implement all this into a complex programming language and "transform" it into FPGA - at least as I understand it is incredible. No wonder cores cannot be perfect. By the way the mistake in Bomb Jack (weird line issue when jumping) is gone - that is very very cool - thanks to the man who did this. Nice greetings to all of you.