Amiga RTG support (Update: Released!)

[Sorgelig]

Highest resolution MiSTer is capable to output is 2048x1536. 24bit color. It's a kind of over-spec. Official max for HDMI is 1920x1080.
The same resolution can be available for Minimig if it will get RTG (it's up to Amiga restrictions). But realistically Amiga doesn't need more than 1280x720. There is no content for Amiga for higher resolution.
Generally speaking RTG is just for WB utilities where you can simply copy the files, arrange the icons. There is no much other things you will do on Amiga. Today Amiga is a simply gaming platform which can demonstrate some good looking windowing GUI All Amiga productivity app are obsolete and useless today.

[ericgus09]

Generally speaking RTG is just for WB utilities where you can simply copy the files, arrange the icons. There is no much other things you will do on Amiga.

Actually there are a number of RTG games and demos that can use RTG.. granted many/some can also use AGA/ECS as well in lieu of rtg, but rtg is far better with them .. its not all about copying icons, and out of date defunct productivity software.. (to which there are a number of contemporary non-game programs that directly benefit from RTG resolutions like telecom/bbs/terminal software ... which I do more of than gaming actually ..)

[riker77]

I am also not interested in the gaming aspect of minimig, as this wasn't my main usage of my A500 in the 90ies.
Using DBLPal with overscan to get something like 724x550, although pretty slow @16 colors, is still more usable than standard PAL. With RTG support, the gfx output of "productivity" apps could fly.

[kolla]

My mind boggles - Minimig is Amiga chipset on FPGA, and the entire point of going RTG/RTA, is to not use the slow chipset anymore, so then... why bother with the FPGA? Why not just use FS-UAE on the Linux side and you will have exactly what you want - RTG, faster CPU, faster disk i/o, networking etc.

[apolkosnik]

Kolla, I think it's all about having more fun, and having more choices.
At least that's why I'm using my MiSTer more than the Vampire.
On this platform, I can make changes, test and learn VHDL and Veriolog.
In the undergrad, I recall single-stepping an imaginary MIPS CPU with a pencil and paper, so this is definitely more fun and more challenging.

[Sorgelig]

Main purpose is to have both: RTG for WB and original chipset for games. Those funny people who still using Amiga for productivity apps and don't need games, really should stick with WinUAE or whatever-UAE as it will give quite fast Amiga.
Those who want to play games and have responsive Workbench without limiting to 4 colors would like to get RTG.

[ericgus09]

Those funny people who still using Amiga for productivity apps and don't need games, really should stick with WinUAE or whatever-UAE as it will give quite fast Amiga.

Tried it .. not the same .. its quantitatively different like that.. seems fake and unreal.

[rhester72]

Tried it .. not the same .. its quantitatively different like that.. seems fake and unreal.

To be fair, so does Picasso96 and AHI (at least to me).

The "hardware sprite" pointer alone - even when double-sized - looks off and doesn't "glide" right on actual hardware. Not sure how to explain it. Amiga mouse movement has a VERY distinct feel and smoothness, and you can absolutely tell instantly whether you're on hardware or emulation from that alone. RTG, not so much.

[bazza_12]

Generally speaking RTG is just for WB utilities where you can simply copy the files, arrange the icons. There is no much other things you will do on Amiga. Today Amiga is a simply gaming platform which can demonstrate some good looking windowing GUI All Amiga productivity app are obsolete and useless today.

I was an Amiga user back in the day (A500 & A1200, 1988-93) and after the initial flurry of playing games I used the 1200 for applications; from graphics on dpaint to completing college courses on word processors (with my trusty Canon BJ10EX printer) also spent a lot of time making music on sound/pro trackers. there were a lot of programs I've gone back to on Minimig and if it were possible to experience them with graphic better support and speed, that would be incredible. I really hope the Amiga is seen as more than just a games platform.

[rhester72]

@bazza_12:

I don't want to speak for anyone else, but to be honest, the Amiga's day as a productivity platform has long passed and serves no viable purpose at all. Games are the focus largely because they remain viable and largely as relevant today as the day they were released - word processors, not so much. If you do dearly wish to relive the (very short) glory days of Amiga in the applications world, UAE is probably a FAR better solution, because I assure you the novelty will wear off after a few hours at most.

[Optiroc]

I was an Amiga user back in the day (A500 & A1200, 1988-93) and after the initial flurry of playing games I used the 1200 for applications; from graphics on dpaint to completing college courses on word processors (with my trusty Canon BJ10EX printer) also spent a lot of time making music on sound/pro trackers. there were a lot of programs I've gone back to on Minimig and if it were possible to experience them with graphic better support and speed, that would be incredible. I really hope the Amiga is seen as more than just a games platform.

Minimig (or a period correct Amiga) is excellent for running applications from that era, and RTG wouldn’t change much. Apps like Sound/Protracker and most drawing apps require classic Amiga screen modes anyway.

[apolkosnik]

Wait, do I see people smirking at an option of getting a graphics card for free?

[rhester72]

No, I'm smirking at the notion of fitting a full-speed CL GD5426 into the DE10 alongside the Minimig core.

[ericgus09]

I also want to reiterate that there are games, demos and such that actually use RTG as well ..

Personally I don't use windows so WinUAE isnt really an option and FS-UAE (UI) is garbage in its current form. If winuae users had to suffer using fs-uae for a week they would freak out at the lack of basic functionality (like being able to drag n drop an ADF file into a running emulation window without having to previously "attach" the adf file before starting the emulation -- etc.. its exceptionally crippled with poor and bad UI/UX experience decisions)

[apolkosnik]

No, I'm smirking at the notion of fitting a full-speed CL GD5426 into the DE10 alongside the Minimig core.

You have the sources, you can build with or without it. It's not closed as the Vampire, where they don't even want you to have the pin mapping.

[ericgus09]

No, I'm smirking at the notion of fitting a full-speed CL GD5426 into the DE10 alongside the Minimig core.

You have the sources, you can build with or without it. It's not closed as the Vampire, where they don't even want you to have the pin mapping.

You do realize the vampire team follow MiSTer as well .. Ive seen your posts asking for pinouts.. I dont think you are going to get much help now..

[kathleen]

@bazza_12
"I really hope the Amiga is seen as more than just a games platform."
I really like this sentence. I was reseller of Amiga (among other brands like Atari, PC etc) back in the day and worked in two different shops. The 1st One was game only and the second one was for professional, it was the time of having an A2000 + 68020 was the paradise. I really saw different profiles between the young people (I was also a young girl in that time ) and not so young for the professional applications. We were specialized in music and video arrangement we were doing also advertising folders, publposting etc all of this with an Amiga. It was the best experience I had with this computer. Making other things than games despite the fact that when I wanted to play a game for sure it was on my Amiga 500 and nothing else. We're now in 2020 and I have several Amiga at home and of course a Mister that I bought especially for the amazing Minimig-aga core. What do I do with it now ? I play games (20%) and the rest of the time it is for database, home money management, music etc (70%) and the 10 remaining % are for watching demos. For me then (and I'm pretty sure for most other users) Amiga is not only synonym of game. I see every improvement in the core like a wonderful gift as small as it is. Of course my wish is also to see one day the RTG not for only having it but tu use the benefit of it.
I talk a lot (to much maybe ) This being said thank you Sorgelig for your amazing work you've been doing sine a while. Dealing with hobby and private stuffs is ver very challenging and I'd say respect !
Kathleen. (a Little Belgium Girl Fan Of Amiga)

[rhester72]

I'm waiting for someone to suggest that the Video Toaster logic be incorporated into the core *laughs*

[ericgus09]

I'm waiting for someone to suggest that the Video Toaster logic be incorporated into the core *laughs*

Sure why not..

[apolkosnik]

No, I'm smirking at the notion of fitting a full-speed CL GD5426 into the DE10 alongside the Minimig core.

You have the sources, you can build with or without it. It's not closed as the Vampire, where they don't even want you to have the pin mapping.

You do realize the vampire team follow MiSTer as well .. Ive seen your posts asking for pinouts.. I dont think you are going to get much help now..

Eric,
Thank you for your kind words, and deleting my post on the V forum. I just wanted to roll my own thing for my own Vampire 500V2, as I've grown tired of waiting for the follow up to the Gold 3 Alpha. Is it wrong that I'd like my crappy hardware to improve? I'm not doing anything bad here or there. Eventually, I'll figure the stuff out and roll something that works. Not sure what your misguided aim is.

Regarding much help... I was told that I'm not getting any help by the big man himself, so I really don't understand what help you are talking about. Besides the stuff that was posted in my deleted post is publicly available information published together with the V1 sources, and licensed under GPLv3.

[Fularu]

People not wanting more options that they can opt out of really baffles/puzzzles me

Next we'll hear that we don't need a 68030 or 68040 core because games don't need it anyway and who does productivity work on it in 2020?

[ericgus09]

People not wanting more options that they can opt out of really baffles/puzzzles me

Next we'll hear that we don't need a 68030 or 68040 core because games don't need it anyway and who does productivity work on it in 2020?

Yes ... I agree and at the risk of insulting folks its a bit short sighted that if YOU PERSONALLY can't "see" value in it .. that there isnt any value in it at all for anyone else.. which is very myopic ..

[ericgus09]

Thank you for your kind words, and deleting my post on the V forum.

I didnt delete anything .. I have no powers over there.. I am not a team member or moderator or anything .. I am like you .. an average forum poster and owner of a vampire .. I am just saying those guys come and visit here too .. see stuff .. read posts on their own (and no I didnt direct them to your posts either I dont have time or desire to play forums police).

As I said there and will say here,and will say again, if writing an alternate amiga core is your desire, you are better off doing it on the DE10/Mister .. you have all kinds of resources available to you here, documentation, and other developers to ask questions and get answers..

[kolla]

Yeah, all the things you cannot have with the Apollo core guys, since they share nada. For years Gunnar and his minions (hey there, Eric) have been touting “if you’re so unhappy about the apollo core, why don’t you just write your own” and here we are - someone is both willing and capable, and now it’s suddenly “uhm, no, we cannot allow that”. Well f that, it’s not up to Gunnar anyways, the V2 hardware is NOT his design, nor his product - it was very important for him to point that out earlier.

And where is the open sourcing of SAGA that was announce more than three years ago?

[Solskogen]

AmiQuake requires a 68040. But it probably won't run very well on a stock 68040

[rhester72]

At some point, particularly with FPGA, you have to draw a line somewhere in the sand.

I mean, what is an 'Amiga' anyway? In the Commodore days, it was easier to define...but now? Should PowerPC accelerators be in scope? Bridgeboards? The Sam440ep? DraCo?

I think people are being a bit unrealistic about what FPGA can realistically bring to the table in terms of both speed and complexity. If you want a SuperAmiga(TM), FGPA just isn't interesting...it isn't going to make anything possible that you can't already achieve right now, today, on a run-of-the-mill laptop running WinUAE, because the sorts of applications you're talking about aren't latency-sensitive and won't play to any of FPGA's strengths.

This isn't a case of "I don't want it, so you shouldn't have it either". It's a case of what you wanting *already existing as good as it can ever get*. FPGA isn't some kind of magic bullet.

[kolla]

Remember back in the days when RTG meant EGS and required dedicated software that would only run on the graphics card output?

https://youtu.be/kFHdxdG2Hyc

[Fularu]

At some point, particularly with FPGA, you have to draw a line somewhere in the sand.

I mean, what is an 'Amiga' anyway? In the Commodore days, it was easier to define

No it wasn't. The Amiga was a productivity computer with a big focus on video editing and real time video overlays and sold as such in north america

It also was a gaming machine with low costs variants and sold as such in Europe mostly. There's a reason even the Amiga 1000 had expansion ports. Those computers were made with everything needed to expand their abilities vastly beyond their initial run and it became even more true with the Amiga 2000 (which came out a full month before the Amiga 500) which was even more expandable and now had a dedicated CPU port.

Trying to arbitrarily mandate what an Amiga should be is misguided at best. It's whatever its user intends it to be, even if "emulation" could provide better performance.

[rhester72]

Actually, the vast majority of North American sales were indeed gaming-related - Toaster use was widely bandied about but resulted in actual sales of less than 20,000 units (source: NewTek). It's worth remembering that the machine was designed initially as a games console - the expansion capability 'snuck in' by its designers. While I appreciate Haynie's work as much as any other (and indeed have fully decked-out 2000s and 3000s in my home), I think it a bit of a stretch that anyone's yearning to return to the productivity side for more than 5 minutes of nostalgia, any more so than people are intent on using GEOS on a C64 or DOS on a PC for real-world productivity needs in 2020.

[Fularu]

Actually, the vast majority of North American sales were indeed gaming-related - Toaster use was widely bandied about but resulted in actual sales of less than 20,000 units (source: NewTek). It's worth remembering that the machine was designed initially as a games console - the expansion capability 'snuck in' by its designers. While I appreciate Haynie's work as much as any other (and indeed have fully decked-out 2000s and 3000s in my home), I think it a bit of a stretch that anyone's yearning to return to the productivity side for more than 5 minutes of nostalgia, any more so than people are intent on using GEOS on a C64 or DOS on a PC for real-world productivity needs in 2020.

Commodore was marketing the Amiga as a productivity machine in NA and Amiga oriented magazines (like Amiga News and Amiga World) were solely focused on productivity software with the odd page here and there about a game. The Amiga was positionned as a direct competitor to Apple's Machintosh and IBM's PC.

This is actually why it's much easier to find big box amigas in NA compared to Europe.

Anyway it's a moot point in the end, if you don't want RTG, or 68040/60 or whetever fancy thing people may want out of their FPGA Amiga, then fine, just don't use them.